From: [identity profile] ellen-datlow.livejournal.com


I think perhaps she thought it would never come up again--that she shut up everyone in Wassila.

From: [identity profile] innocentsmith.livejournal.com


Good point. I suppose she couldn't exactly have predicted the internet or her nomination at that time, and the fact that she thought this was a good/necessary strategy at all says something about her usual M.O.

From: [identity profile] ellen-datlow.livejournal.com


There are so many issues the Republicans can be nailed by but first and foremost: economy. Highest unemployment rate in six years. Recession/national debt. The Republicans have been in power for most of the past 8 years (actually most of the last 20 years) and what have they done for YOU as an American? Not effing much.

From: [identity profile] innocentsmith.livejournal.com


A sufficiently determined Republican can still find a way to justify it all as either sad but inevitable/the result of acts of god, or somehow blame the Clinton administration for being bad at foreign policy, thus letting the terrorists take hold, thus making the war necessary, thus...well, the Clintons are just plain weasely, it's gotta be their fault. Trust me, I'm currently sharing a house with one. And this is someone who's pro-choice, anti-censorship, pro-gay rights. I just...I have no idea.

(I seem to be on a mission in your post here to use my Calvin & Hobbes icons; here, have this one, it's my favorite.)

From: [identity profile] ellen-datlow.livejournal.com


Aighhh. How can she/he be all that and plan to vote Republican. Thanks for the icon...yup yup :-)

From: [identity profile] innocentsmith.livejournal.com


I do not know. Efforts to argue him into sanity continue.

(From this comic, of course.)

(http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/calvin-denial.gif)

From: [identity profile] pdlloyd.livejournal.com


That sort of thing winds up being one of the mysteries of life, I think.

My dad, who is what I like to call a devout atheist, has become more and more entrenched in his belief that the Republican party are holding back the dark and protecting us all from economic doom and Communism, while remaining in complete denial (love your icon) about their attitudes toward atheists.

From: [identity profile] slithytove.livejournal.com


I'm the same as your dad. I vote Republican, but I always feel like a goldfish trying to swim in a bowl full of glass marbles.

From: [identity profile] pdlloyd.livejournal.com


Based on the tone of your comment (and on what I read in your bio *g*) I imagine you have some rational reasons for your voting choices. Since my dad is less rational, at least when he talks to me about politics, I'm really curious about why you prefer swimming in that bowl to the alternative, if you'd care to elaborate.

From: [identity profile] slithytove.livejournal.com


Briefly: I disagree with the Republicans (and often agree with the Democrats) on many social issues, but disagree with the Democrats on issues of economics, security, and foreign policy.

From: [identity profile] 14theditch.livejournal.com


slithytove: That must be because the Republicans have done such a bang-up job with the economy. And, oh, foreing policy -- things couldn't be better. Are you nuts?

From: [identity profile] slithytove.livejournal.com


Hi, Jeff!

For the economy, we need better quality Republicans. I admit, the crowd in office right now aren't much to write home about. But the ones in office the latter 1990s, Newt Gingrich and his Contract with America boys, were pretty darned good. Balanced the budget. Reformed welfare. Impeached the president... okay, the last part was dumb, and they deserved what they got. Gods, hubris, you do the math.

I think the economy works better when government is divided between the parties. They both tend to keep each other's craziness in check.

Foreign policy? Suppose Gore had been elected in 2000. He probably still would have invaded Afghanistan after 9/11. Same deal there. Iraq? Probably not. Saddam Hussein would remain in power, the sanctions would be gone (they were collapsing rapidly even in the late 1990s), and Saddam would be back to murdering the Shiites and Kurds, and invading a neighbor again. When we'd be forced to step in again, and probably depose him at that time, instead of in 2003. Gore would be blamed for the resulting quagmire, and the Republicans would sneer, "If only we had been in power, things would have been *very* different."

Iran? Still playing at building nukes. North Korea? The same. France would still be stand-offish in public, but cooperative in private (as they are now). Israel and the Palestinians would still be at each other's throats.

We might have economic relations with Cuba. That's really the only substantial foreign policy improvement I could see happening in a Gore administration.

Or maybe I'm just nuts.

From: [identity profile] ellen-datlow.livejournal.com


Interesting, but I see this all very differently:

We wouldn't have been in Iraq --a great thing

Iran--IS still playing at building nukes

North Korea would have been dealt with years ago, instead of as an emergency--gee, maybe we should start talking to them-- in the last year

Israel and the Palestinians --Bush did nothing the first 7 years in office. The only reason he's trying to do anything now is his legacy. I'd love to see peace between Israel and the Palestinians but so far the Republicans have done little to further that in my eyes, while the Democrats did, particularly Clinton (although ultimately his peace effort failed thanks to Arafat.

Clinton reformed welfare not Newt.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] slithytove.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-09-08 02:55 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ellen-datlow.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-09-08 02:58 pm (UTC) - Expand

From: [identity profile] 14theditch.livejournal.com


Would have, could have, might have. I'm talking about those in office right now. The Republican party, the party that bows to the religious right and all their antiquated bafoonery,fucked up Katrina, outed a CIA agent, led us into a useless war on trumped up bullshit evidence,had a completely politically motivated Attorney General, overturned legislature of elected officials with signing statements on a ridiculous scale, and sent the economy on the skids to Hell, has lost every shred of respectability it might ever have had. I don't care what Gore might have done, I know what Bush and Cheney and that crew did. For real.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ellen-datlow.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-09-08 02:59 pm (UTC) - Expand

From: [identity profile] pdlloyd.livejournal.com


Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the matter. I still don't truly understand, because the specific areas you mention are areas that seem (to me, anyway) to have been poorly handled by recent Republican administrations, but I appreciate your willingness to discuss them.

From: [identity profile] slithytove.livejournal.com


I really shouldn't have said anything.

No one ever wins a political argument anyway. No one changes their mind. Everyone just hates each other when it's over. Except uncle Elmer who keeled over while trying to defend bimetallism, and now the paramedics are doing CPR on him.

There's a reason families have rules about no politics at the dinner table.

From: [identity profile] ellen-datlow.livejournal.com


Thank you for participation anyway. Mostly they become flame wars and this one didn't --even if we disagree.

Republicans and Democrats obviously see the same events in a completely different light. I don't think it could always have been this way and it's a shame that it is now.

From: [identity profile] pdlloyd.livejournal.com


I disagree. I think it's only through civil dialog and trying to understand each others' positions, that we can foster the democratic ideals underlying our republic. (Please note the use of lower-case.) I've certainly heard things that made me think and, eventually, to change my mind, even if I wasn't ready to do so at the time I first heard the statement. If people were so fixed in their views, we'd still be living in caves, bashing large mammals with rocks, and running away from fire, if we even still existed as a species.

That we can't always be civil to each other is a problem. Some families are better about it than others and can manage to discuss a wide range of subjects, including politics, in their dinner table talk. I can't talk to my dad about politics, but that's because he refuses to be civil about it, and even then I've never thought he hated me, nor do I think he thought I hated him.

From: [identity profile] 14theditch.livejournal.com


I changed my mind during the last 8 years. I used to hate the Republicans, but now I fucking despise them.

From: [identity profile] ellen-datlow.livejournal.com


pdlloyd,
So your dad doesn't realize that the Soviet Union has fallen and that the Cold War is over? That's truly weird.

From: [identity profile] pdlloyd.livejournal.com


Yes. I agree. If it was only recent comments, I'd chalk it up to old age and early stage Alzheimer's, as he's 79 and in denial about a number of other (non-political) issues, these days, but the problem is long-standing. Back when Bill Clinton was first elected (long before the Lewinski fiasco), he accused me of being a traitor to my country for having voted for him. It seems he considered Clinton to be a draft dodger. Which was when I started refusing to talk politics with him. I broke my own rule during the first Bush campaign to tell him about Bush's less than stellar efforts to avoid having to actually serve his country, but somehow that was different.

I'm not really sure when he changed, though. Because I can remember him telling me he was an Independent the first time I asked, as a kid--I think I was about 10 at the time.

From: [identity profile] ellen-datlow.livejournal.com


That's tough.
I the late 60s-early 70s I'd have big fights with my dad about Vietnam. although he did change his mind and being anti (I don't know his opinions on it now). I try to not talk politics with him (my mom never gets involved) because certain topics are untouchable. My uncle (father's brother) is a Republican and after a few loud arguments in restaurants, my father, my uncle, and I stopped talking politics.

It's sad to see this country so divided politically. I would love to see some reconciliation but it'll never happen unless moderates of both parties prevail.

From: [identity profile] pdlloyd.livejournal.com


I used to think I was fairly moderate, if relatively liberal on social issues. No longer. My first pick out of our initial set of possible Democratic candidates was Kucinich. I still don't understand why his attempt to impeach Bush was not just rejected by his peers in the senate, but ignored by the major media.

But, while I have strong opinions, I try to express them civilly and to listen to what others have to say. A democracy isn't about everybody agreeing, only about everybody agreeing to follow the rules of democratic conduct--which include civil discussion and rule of law.

From: [identity profile] sistercoyote.livejournal.com


I'm also seeing a lot of folks argue elsenet that it doesn't matter if she asked, because she didn't ask about specific books.

No, this argument doesn't make any sense to me, either.
.

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