The Goosle by Margo Lanagan

[ellen_datlow]

I'm posting this now so you can have a head start. I won't be reading it till I get home tonight (agita is not a good thing while traveling)...comments welcome in the meantime,and I'll catch up tonight or tomorrow morning:

Off on a Tangent

I'm adding an excellent analysis of the actual story vs the review here at
Torque Control

and comments by SF Diplomat, Ben Payne, and Chasing Ray

And Margo Lanagan, who has been offline while traveling (why did I think that might be the case) has this to say --at least until she returns:

[L]et me just say that anyone who thinks ‘The Goosle’ is child pornography has their child-porn radar set way too high; that anyone who thinks Hanny for a moment enjoys being buggered simply hasn’t read the story properly; and anyone who thinks the story was written for shock value or because my ‘idea well ran dry’ has very little sense of how stories happen, or how many ideas are constantly beating at the doors of any writer’s brain. Dave’s review says a whole lot more about Dave than it says about ‘The Goosle’ or about my motivations.
Margo strikes back!

Comments

[nick-kaufmann.livejournal.com]

Wow, talk about misunderstanding a story (and indeed an entire anthology -- most of the other stories are for juveniles?)!

[ellen-datlow.livejournal.com]

Really? Is that what he says? I wonder where he got that idea from?

[ellen-datlow.livejournal.com]

Oh I know...there are a few stories with young protagonists (which I hadn't even noticed when putting the antho together). Still, yes, a total misunderstanding of the anthology, as most of the stories are pretty dense for a ya reader.

[nick-kaufmann.livejournal.com]

He got it from his own misinterpretation of stories like North American Lake Monsters and Jimmy. Everyone's going to react differently to an anthology, they'll all have their own opinions and interpretations, so it's hard to call anyone wrong, but I wholeheartedly disagree with this person's review.

[al-zorra.livejournal.com]

Not unexpected, since you and Dave have proven over the years to have such different tastes and standards in fiction. For instance, I recall the KJF that set him off for the longest time, when you published it -- before it became an award winner. He was determined the story wasn't sf.

Love, C.

so...

[themadblonde]

the kid isn't raped to the point of wondering whether he enjoys it? That's a relief.

Re: so...

[nick-kaufmann.livejournal.com]

Oh no, there's a possibly non-consensual sexual nature between two of the boy and the man (I'm forgetting their names now) but I feel the reviewer has misinterpreted the tone and intention of the story.

ah...

[themadblonde]

easily done. I'm a little hyper-sensitive about non-consensual sex scenes myself, even when I'm assured that that's not "the point" of a scene. Then again, I'm sadly literal-minded. I frequently miss the nuances that elevate a subtly crafted piece to a higher plane of consideration. My own limitations.

Re: ah...

[ellen-datlow.livejournal.com]

You might hate the story and/or find it offensive, but you'll probably need to judge it on its own, not from hearing what people say about it.

[14theditch.livejournal.com]

For me, as an avid reader of short fiction, Margo Lanagan's work has been a real bright spot. "The Goosle" is no exception. I have to agree with Nick that this was also my favorite story in the anthology. Not just the imagery, which would be expected, but the word choice, the sentence structure and the dialogue are all integral to creating this visionary nightmare world. Talk about great worldbuilding, it doesn't get any better than this. The story is so idiosyncratically unique, and I found the tale terrifying as any great horror story, each turn of the plot and image riveting. The fact that Dave would want to cast this as smut is dull witted and gravely insulting to a reader's intelligence. The dark qualities, the sense of unease, the sexuality of the piece, the intense descritpions brought this across to me with the power of a true dream -- the kind with bizzare happenings but totally believable, where you wake with a yelp, gtasping. None of the events described in this story are played as pornography -- I hate to let on, but child abuse of this type happens everyday. The fact that Lanagan has the courage to present these situations as being as damaging, confusing, and frightening to a child as she does, lends the story its honesty and its power. Leave it to Dave to direct your attention to the best work in an anthology or magazine. Whatever he dumps on unfairly and most vigorously is more than likely a masterpiece. You can look for "The Goosle" to be on at least a couple of awards short lists next year. His overall critique of the anthology, the fact that he's seen it all before. Merely ticking off stories and saying, well, I've seen that before, is so reductively lame as a critical approach its laughable. I can't wait for Lanagan's new book.

Re: ah...

[nick-kaufmann.livejournal.com]

If a story involving sexual abuse might trigger something nasty in you, I'd recommend avoiding it. It's an incredible story, but nothing's worth putting yourself through something awful.

absolutely agreed

[themadblonde]

Regrettable "this should never have been published" comments aside, it is useful to me to have an idea of the plot of a story for just that reason.

true...

[themadblonde]

as far as quality of writing or intention or pov of a piece is involved. However, if I know the plot of a piece involves a rape, however well-written or intentioned, I've got a pretty good idea that this is not a story for me. Sadly limiting, but helps in keeping what little sanity I have left. ;-)

[leethomas.livejournal.com]

I find this passage particularly telling:
"There are those in today's society who believe that anything goes, especially in the artistic community, where moral relativism would seem to be the philosophy of choice, and so the mantra goes something like this: Who is anyone to tell an artist what he or she can't "create," be it a work of fiction, a painting, a sculpture, or a song? They shout "censorship!""

Compared to the 60's and 70's, we are in a comparatively conservative place artistically. The people who tut-tut and demand shame are at an all-time high, despite the fact many of the social taboos they so fear reading about have been explored - and explored to death - in literature decades old. I'm constantly surprised these days how people can be offended by an issue and refuse to take further analytical action because the subject is just too "icky." Ridiculous.

I haven't read the story, and I'll admit the description in that review made me not want to read it, but this discussion has changed that.

[jplangan.livejournal.com]

Wow. I don't know where to begin...but an "Amen" to Jeff and Lee's posts, for starters.

[imago1.livejournal.com]

I find it even more telling, and more disturbing, that Truesdale refers to "homosexual child rape" as if there is some connection between sexual orientation and rape. Such an implication is ignorant, bigoted, and wholly infuriating.

[imago1.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Actually, he eviscerated two that will surely appear on awards ballots and reprint tocs next year -- North American Lake Monsters being the other.

Mark it down. ;)

[leethomas.livejournal.com]

Sadly his approach nearly worked on me. I am so sick of people equating gay with child predator - I'm assuming Lanagan is not making this equation based on Nick and Jeff's comments. Male rape is rarely used intelligently in fiction, usually brought in as a revenge device - "Take that, Butch" - or a quick character note - "Oh, well he's a perv. Get him hero!". Generally it's a shock note that plays shallow. The fact that the reviewer is reacting on a shallow level and with such a tired complaint - "Oh my god, save our children from the mincing homo-hordes," - is just pathetic.

Again though, he almost turned me off to the story completely, especially when mentioning how the boy "might" have liked it. ("He's been recruited! The gays have changed one of our children!" - another tired and unfounded fear). I can see that very disturbing idea being handled well as part of the natural confusion such a situation would bring about, but I wasn't quite ready to take the chance Lanagan was handling it well. It's very rare. Now I want to see for myself.

[14theditch.livejournal.com]

That's right, Ballingrud's story got the seal of approval too. Damn, he's good.

[pgtremblay.livejournal.com]

I find it even more telling, and more disturbing, that Truesdale refers to "homosexual child rape" as if there is some connection between sexual orientation and rape.

Nail on the head. It jumps off the computer screen.

[sarcobatus.livejournal.com]

Margo Lanagan's "The Goosle" is storytelling at its finest, and most horrific. How Truesdale arrived at the idea that Hanny eventually learned to enjoy being raped eludes me. What Hanny eventually does come to understand is the insidiousness of Grinnan's exploitative seduction, so typical of most molesters.

But Grinnan met with one more foul than he . . .

I'm grateful for brave writers and brave editors.

[sarcobatus.livejournal.com]

Agreed.

[joeicarus.blogspot.com (from livejournal.com)]

*nod*

That jumped out at me too.

[(Anonymous)]

If Dave was the victim of sexual abuse in childhood then I can understand any pain the story might have caused him. But I don't share his interpretation of the Goosel or have any sympathy with the way he used it as a springboard for a general attack on many of the other stories and the anthology in general.

I don't, as a rule, read stories about sexual abuse, though I have written stories involving it. This may seem like hypocrisy but it's how it is. I read the Lanagan story on the flight to Wiscon knowing only that it retold Hansel and Gretel and that it was dark. The damn thing tore me up. I had nightmares. It is powerful and in its treatment of abuse and revenge, The Goosel seems to me real in the way that only great fantasy can be. For me it's the best piece in that book (and I have a story in there). This is the best story I've read this year and if I read a better one 2008 will have been a very great year indeed.

Rick Bowes

On a tangent . . .

[joeicarus.blogspot.com (from livejournal.com)]

I haven't read this anthology, unfortunately, so I can't contrast the opinions expressed by Truesdale or by folks here with my own. I know that the heated, controversial comments he made are what everyone's going to focus on, but one of the issues touched on in passing is actually of great interest to me: the erroneous assumption that a work is YA or for even younger readers based on the age of the protagonist. I'm curious to hear people's perspective on this, if anybody's interested in talking about it.

I can think, offhand, of quite a few works I've read and enjoyed that featured young protagonists that I would not have said were written for kids or teens. Ender's Game, even though it's marketed to young adults now, is pretty much at the top of that list. Lots of brutality, some fairly sophisticated themes explored, and a protagonist who is too young for the typical definition of YA. (Actually, this describes most early Card novels, no?) A lot of Stephen King novels feature young protagonists and are clearly not written for kids, though mature kids certainly might enjoy them. The Talisman, comes to mind, along with The Regulators and Hearts in Atlantis. I think some of McCaffrey's books also fit the category I'm trying loosely to define here. Parts of Kress's Beggars in Spain, too, IIRC. Steven Gould's Jumper features a teenager but isn't written specifically for young adults. Charles Sheffield's Cold as Ice and The Ganymede Club. I'm sure there are lots more, but those are the ones that came to me just now.

Is it hard to sell stories or novels if there is a perception that they defy easy categorization? I've always heard that the rule of thumb in fiction written for kids and teens is that the protagonist should be two or three years older than the intended reader. If I were trying to sell Ender's Game and *wasn't* an award-winning writer (and if it hadn't been published as a short story first) would people take one look at the protagonist who is seven at the start and conclude that this book has no audience, because adults won't read a book about kids and kids older than five won't read a book about a seven-year-old, and the book is too mature for a five-year-old?

This is a personal issue to me because I'm just wrapping up my first draft of a novel in which the protagonist is thirteen, but it was not written specifically for middle readers. It wouldn't be inappropriate for young adults, but I hear that a thirteen-year-old protagonist is too young for a YA book (and the plot doesn't work if he's older). When I came up with the story, I wasn't thinking about categories, of MR or YA or anything. I was just writing a story that appealed to me. But now, as I close in on the end, I find myself worrying that I've written an unsellable book (at least, unsellable for an unpublished writer) because it doesn't "fit" into a neat category. I fear I've wasted months, and that I should have thought more about marketing concerns like that before I hammered out a whole manuscript.

Anyway, I apologize in advance for the self-interested attempt at a derail. I'll tell you what triggered my musing: it was nick_kaufmann's disagreement with Truesdale's contention that most of the stories are for juveniles, followed by Ms. Datlow's suggestion that it was the preponderance of young protagonists that led Truesdale to that conclusion. I guess my questions, for anybody who's interested in talking about this, are: Does it put you off if a work that is not labeled YA has a kid as a protagonist, Can you think of examples of such books that I've missed, and Do you think it's substantially more difficult to market a book that is not YA when it has a young protagonist.

(If it's tacky to try and start my own discussion on someone else's LJ, I'll apologize and remove it. I'm still relatively new to blogging and much more comfortable with forums.)