Orson Scott Card on gay marriage

[ellen_datlow]

(A hint. He's not for it)
Mormon Times

Thanks to Cheryl Morgan

Comments

[upstart-crow.livejournal.com]

I really hate saying anything bad about anybody, but I really *do* wish he'd shut up about this already. Yeah, Mr. Card. We get that you don't like gay marriage already. So may I recommend not marrying a man?

ETA: Also:

The first and greatest threat from court decisions in California and Massachusetts, giving legal recognition to "gay marriage," is that it marks the end of democracy in America.

These judges are making new law without any democratic process; in fact, their decisions are striking down laws enacted by majority vote.

What bugs me about arguments like this is that people's rights should never be decided by majority rule.

[ellen-datlow.livejournal.com]

My exact thoughts.

[nick-kaufmann.livejournal.com]

What a doofus!

[upstart-crow.livejournal.com]

You know, when I was 13 he signed my copies of Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead.

I'm wondering if I could auction them off and donate all the proceeds to Equality California (though Equality Utah might piss him off even more).

[txtriffidranch.livejournal.com]

Not to belabor the obvious, but why does anyone give a damn? My worry is that he's writing these diatribes solely to garner the attention from disillusioned former fans, because they're the only individuals willing to read such a turgid mess. Seriously, folks: if you know an article is from Card, ignore it, and maybe the publications that run his work will notice that he's suddenly getting four hits per month, and three of those are from him.

[ellen-datlow.livejournal.com]

What a lovely idea.

[upstart-crow.livejournal.com]

I just might do that :)

Aagh! Ellen! I've now read the whole thing and none of it makes a single lick of sense! Now he's talking about property rights and how marriage should be like property rights in that, um, I guess you own your husband or wife and as a man you have no responsibility to any children you may produce while cheating on your wife. But that's okay because societies that didn't follow this rule all died out.

I could respect this if he could at least make an argument that I could follow. But now he's just sounding unhinged.

[ellen-datlow.livejournal.com]

I'm sure he's not. He's doing it for the true believers of his church...

[upstart-crow.livejournal.com]

and three of those are from him.

I'm so glad I'd finished my blueberries, because I just laughed loud enough to scare my cat.

[txtriffidranch.livejournal.com]

Whenever I hear the gibberish about "majority vote", I keep thinking of the Provisional Government of the Republic of Texas, a group of whackjobs in the Nineties who felt that Texas illegally became a state without opening up the debate to public vote. (Just in case you weren't familiar with our history, Texas is the only US state that was previously a separate Republic, although we joined the Union because the Republic government had been printing a lot of money without anything to back it up. Much is made about how the Texas Constitution allows the option to secede, even though the statehood was contingent upon the US government paying off the Republic's debts, but all of that was rendered void once Texas joined the Confederate States of America in 1861.) What was left out of their homespun press materials was that one of the things they wanted back as a newly minted Republic was slavery, because the decision to ban slavery wasn't voted upon, either.

[stephen-dedman.livejournal.com]

I don't think the issue here is whether people's rights should be decided by majority rule; I think it's whether a majority in the past should be permitted to overrule a majority at present or in the future (as I believe is being done with the 2nd Amendment), or whether someone like Card should be permitted to pick and choose what constitutes a majority: if a majority in the US voted to allow gay marriage, would he then say that the majority of Christians worldwide were against it and it should therefore still be banned? I suspect he would. (Considering the history of Mormonism in the US, I'm surprised that Mormons aren't a little more cautious of endorsing the oppression of minorities.)

(FWIW, Card was a GoH at the Easter Natcon in New Zealand a few years back. This caused an exodus of fans from NZ to Australia for our Easter con, as a protest against Card's political views. I will, however, admit to still admiring his earlier works - say, pre-Xenocide.)

[martinlivings.livejournal.com]

Ah, the same old arguments, trotted out time and time again...

Marriage is older than government. Its meaning is universal: It is the permanent or semipermanent bond between a man and a woman, establishing responsibilities between the couple and any children that ensue.

It always comes back to this cartoon I found ages ago...

[upstart-crow.livejournal.com]

I'd known a lot of that, but not all of it - specifically Texas wanting slavery back. Fascinating!

[txtriffidranch.livejournal.com]

That's implying that they give a fart in a high wind about what he has to say. Back when W.A. Criswell, the pastor of Lakeland Baptist Church and the acknowledged founder of modern Protestant fundamentalism, pretty much ran Dallas, everyone in city government quaked in fear of how many fellow Southern Baptists would drop everything and boycott, protest, or burn at his order. It wasn't until the late Eighties that anyone decided to call him on it, and they promptly discovered that a goodly portion of Southern Baptists, in Dallas or elsewhere, would sooner get a hot Clorox enema than do anything he suggested. It doesn't matter if his or Card's fanatic followers care: they might be reading it, but they probably won't remember the essay ten minutes later. This is intended to get the rest of us angry, and subsequently jump up click rates.

[hownottowrite.livejournal.com]

You know, I notice that he doesn't link to his articles on the Mormon Time from his own website. Then again, I saw this quote in an article he did link to where he begged McCain not to choose Mitt Romney for VP:

"I'm a Democrat who voted for Obama in the primaries."

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2008-07-20-1.html

What a strange, disturbed man... Best off sticking to fiction where no one has to know just how crazy he is.

[txtriffidranch.livejournal.com]

The rest of us didn't, I hasten to add: these were a gaggle of idiots who would have been kicked out of a Dragon*Con for being overly obnoxious and dorky, but they felt they had the law on their side. Ultimately, they went to jail, mostly because they were trying to sell Provisional Republic scrip as legal tender. The worst part was that they wanted a Waco-style standoff with the authorities, but if I remember correctly, they finally surrendered without bloodshed. (As the joke goes, they had to leave their trailer in order to get their welfare checks from the post office.)

[upstart-crow.livejournal.com]

Amazing. It sounds like they'd have a bit in common with Card here, who seems to be advocating (violent?) revolution against the US government over gay marriage.

When was this spectacular fiasco involving Provisional Republic script and Dragon*Con rejects? I had thought during Reconstruction, but now I wonder if it wasn't 1977 instead.

[lagilman]

Oh lord... once again he sings the same song of Bigoted Mysogyny, and off-key to boot. *yawn* I refuse to give him the benefit of a site hit.

[cynthia1960.livejournal.com]

It's a great idea, but I'd say go with Equality California rather than Utah because the fight for equality in UT is pretty much dead in the water and the CA struggle may, Goddess willing, be won with all our help.

[txtriffidranch.livejournal.com]

Sorry: the Provisional Government's reign was pretty much from 1991 to 1997. Before that, they were a group of goofballs who'd meet in Arlington and issue writs of payment against the US government and the Holy See of the Catholic Church in order to finance the new Republic.

[upstart-crow.livejournal.com]

Oh, I fully agree with you :) It's just that Utah has our own anti-gay political battles to be fought that are just as terrifying - none of these are about marriage equality, mind you. More about whether or not gay couples can adopt children (they haven't been able to here since 2000).

[upstart-crow.livejournal.com]

That's OK!

Against the Catholic Church?! I really, really have got to read up on this. I love weird moments from history, especially if they're recent as this is.

[ygolonac.livejournal.com]

It's kind of ironic that he would be so pro 'traditional marriage' considering his religion is best known for being polygamists.

[foresthouse.livejournal.com]

the propaganda mill that our schools are rapidly becoming.

Oh, who does he think he's kidding? What, when the schools talk abstinence or whatever it's not propaganda, but when they talk about this, it is? If he's labeling this propaganda, then he should at least fairly recognize that everything else schools advocate should be branded the same. He can advocate whatever he wants, but he shouldn't try to cloak it in his stance being right and other viewpoints being propaganda. *rolls eyes*

I lost patience and couldn't even finish reading it, for fear I'd go on another rant about Orson Scott Card. Which I don't have time for tonight. *sigh*

[imago1.livejournal.com]

I find myself cracking my knuckles when I read one of Card's little rants.