Aagh! Ellen! I've now read the whole thing and none of it makes a single lick of sense! Now he's talking about property rights and how marriage should be like property rights in that, um, I guess you own your husband or wife and as a man you have no responsibility to any children you may produce while cheating on your wife. But that's okay because societies that didn't follow this rule all died out.
I could respect this if he could at least make an argument that I could follow. But now he's just sounding unhinged.
It's a great idea, but I'd say go with Equality California rather than Utah because the fight for equality in UT is pretty much dead in the water and the CA struggle may, Goddess willing, be won with all our help.
Oh, I fully agree with you :) It's just that Utah has our own anti-gay political battles to be fought that are just as terrifying - none of these are about marriage equality, mind you. More about whether or not gay couples can adopt children (they haven't been able to here since 2000).
Utah may be the heart of mormonism, but I am afraid I have to admit that OSC lives in Greensboro, North Carolina, right down the road from here. (Feel free to donate to our local orgs, they're fighting a pretty good battle).
I joked to Craig Gidney last night about doing an anthology Pick a Card, Any Card, where contributors choose a OSC storyline and write a pastiche of it with gay themes, all money going to pro-gay marriage charities. Craig laughed.
I don't think the issue here is whether people's rights should be decided by majority rule; I think it's whether a majority in the past should be permitted to overrule a majority at present or in the future (as I believe is being done with the 2nd Amendment), or whether someone like Card should be permitted to pick and choose what constitutes a majority: if a majority in the US voted to allow gay marriage, would he then say that the majority of Christians worldwide were against it and it should therefore still be banned? I suspect he would. (Considering the history of Mormonism in the US, I'm surprised that Mormons aren't a little more cautious of endorsing the oppression of minorities.)
(FWIW, Card was a GoH at the Easter Natcon in New Zealand a few years back. This caused an exodus of fans from NZ to Australia for our Easter con, as a protest against Card's political views. I will, however, admit to still admiring his earlier works - say, pre-Xenocide.)
On topic - Card seems to think he understands law much more than he does. He was totally, completely wrong about the J.K. Rowling Lexicon case, and now he's completely wrong in what he's saying here. *sigh*
"Considering the history of Mormonism in the US, I'm surprised that Mormons aren't a little more cautious of endorsing the oppression of minorities."
Yeah, well, that history's kinda bullshit. The early Mormons, like the English Puritan settlers, weren't so much persecuted as driven out every time they tried to persecute others. You know why Smith and his brother got lynched, for instance? Because the LDS completely took over the political infrastructure of Nauvoo, Illinois. There remaining only one important piece of opposition, a local newspaper, Smith, as mayor, authorized the Mormon sheriff to get up a mob and burn the place to the ground. Which they did. That's why they were in jail, and that's why the local non-LDS citizenry, thoroughly sick of their crap, hauled them out of jail and murdered them.
The Mormons have a history of being very kind to American Indians in their migration to Utah, primarily because they thought they were actually Jews. Other than that, they're as oppressive as any other religion that gets any power, and they were really kind of egregious assholes to everybody around them, back at the beginning.
BTW, I just put your book on hold at the library. My own "post-hippie" parents became uber-charismatic Christians, so I'll read pretty much anybody's insane story like that.
Cool! Do let me know what you think when you read it. I get tons of letters from people who also had crazy-religious parents, of which I think the best was from a woman whose Pentecostal preacher father handled rattlesnakes.
You might want to read about The Meadow Mountain Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre). Early Mormons were not friendly people.
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ellen_datlow) wrote2008-07-29 08:35 pm
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I'm wondering if I could auction them off and donate all the proceeds to Equality California (though Equality Utah might piss him off even more).
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Aagh! Ellen! I've now read the whole thing and none of it makes a single lick of sense! Now he's talking about property rights and how marriage should be like property rights in that, um, I guess you own your husband or wife and as a man you have no responsibility to any children you may produce while cheating on your wife. But that's okay because societies that didn't follow this rule all died out.
I could respect this if he could at least make an argument that I could follow. But now he's just sounding unhinged.
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I joked to Craig Gidney last night about doing an anthology Pick a Card, Any Card, where contributors choose a OSC storyline and write a pastiche of it with gay themes, all money going to pro-gay marriage charities. Craig laughed.
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(FWIW, Card was a GoH at the Easter Natcon in New Zealand a few years back. This caused an exodus of fans from NZ to Australia for our Easter con, as a protest against Card's political views. I will, however, admit to still admiring his earlier works - say, pre-Xenocide.)
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On topic - Card seems to think he understands law much more than he does. He was totally, completely wrong about the J.K. Rowling Lexicon case, and now he's completely wrong in what he's saying here. *sigh*
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Yeah, well, that history's kinda bullshit. The early Mormons, like the English Puritan settlers, weren't so much persecuted as driven out every time they tried to persecute others. You know why Smith and his brother got lynched, for instance? Because the LDS completely took over the political infrastructure of Nauvoo, Illinois. There remaining only one important piece of opposition, a local newspaper, Smith, as mayor, authorized the Mormon sheriff to get up a mob and burn the place to the ground. Which they did. That's why they were in jail, and that's why the local non-LDS citizenry, thoroughly sick of their crap, hauled them out of jail and murdered them.
The Mormons have a history of being very kind to American Indians in their migration to Utah, primarily because they thought they were actually Jews. Other than that, they're as oppressive as any other religion that gets any power, and they were really kind of egregious assholes to everybody around them, back at the beginning.
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It's lines like this that make the entire internet worthwhile.
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